Transcript - 2020 Vision In Conversation: Monetising and Distribution

So my name is Geeta regrow I'm freelance programmer I've done film and I'm currently the leader, the course leader of the MA screen dance at London contemporary dance school, and I'm joined by Mark Kirschner and Katie Connelly. And we will dive into the distribution of specifically dance film we will also look a bit at live dance, moving into online territory. So, partly dance film but sort of allowing live dance in an online way to come in as well. And we will also try and unpick a little bit the dynamics about monetizing this, and look at that, both from the perspective of an organization but also from the perspective of an individual artist or maker. And what I would love to ask you to do first of all is, if you could in the chat indicate whether you're coming with an interest as an organization who puts work out, or whether you are an individual artist or creator, just to give us a sense of






Yeah, what the Constitution of the room is and where the interest lies. Yeah. So so far that looks to me like a preponderance of individual artists, but at the same time also venues, and actually one of the, one of the pet peeves that I see jacked my students to a regular rant about is the is the dynamic that happens between them and us them the institution us individuals institutions are made up of individuals and so I don't want to. Now replicate this division that I don't






Subscribe to but it is useful to think about what resources we have available when we're talking about distribution and monetizing so. Yeah. Great. Thank you for playing it that's really useful and interesting and also a great list of who's in the room. Um, so, yes so I would like to introduce First of all, Mark cashner, who is the co founder and head of special projects and innovation at marquee TV, and he has been for a long time. One of the earliest advocates of digital distribution for dance and for dance film in a number of platforms and ingenious ways over a good stretch of time and way too long. And in recent months, Mark has been featured in a number of really high profile publications talking about the impact of streaming on the Arts, and this is such an interesting intersection of arts practice, and live and online audiences so I really look forward to, digging into things. And I'm also joined by Katie Connelly, who is a digital producer, a consultant and a mentor who has produced and published digital content for organizations across the charity sector academic contexts and cultural sectors. For over 13 years. I'm an early member of the bbcs Digital gorillas group, and has been working on developing digital content for a number of platforms. BBC TV, radio digital, and currently Katie works for the space, which is an organization that helps arts and cultural organizations to produce digital content to reach new audiences. And for me, this is one of those keywords is thinking the intersection from trying to monetize something for me is always a discussion about audiences and the perception of value that audiences have and how that interaction in that contract with an audience happens, whether that's mediated through an organization and ticket buying or whether that comes in other shapes and forms so I'm really curious about getting into that. A quick word about my own background and what I hope to bring to the conversation is that I work predominantly with festivals or through festivals, and that's my main intersection with bringing work to an audience. And there are so many specific dynamics at work in specialist festivals, and it's not not all of these are unique to dance film The same thing can be seen in short film festivals in artist film and video that you are in a specialist forum, rather than a mainstream forum and that dictates certain dynamics and there are structures that have evolved, that were fit for one purpose and we're using them in a different way and that creates. She is in drifts that don't always support artists so for instance in festivals, there's the fact that fees are usually filmmakers have to submit and pay a fee to a festival. You don't get paid for exhibiting your work, that works when you're making short films in order to become a feature film filmmaker, and it's a stepping stone it's different when this is your main practice. So, between these different forms of exhibiting work and bringing work to audiences, whether it's festivals, whether it's online whether that's other forms. I hope that between us we'll find some, some useful takeaways for how we get work to audiences and how we resource, those who make that work. Now I've talked for a really long time and I'm really really looking forward to handing over to one of you to to continue So Katie if I could ask you to talk a bit about the space, and the work that the organization does.



Yeah, sure. Thanks, Peter, and



yes the space is a digital capacity building organization, mostly working in the UK and it was set up by the Arts Council, and the BBC, to increase digital access to arts and culture. And so there are a number of ways that the space does that that can either be through commissioning process so commissioning digital project save through various funding streams, and we run a strategic digital mentoring program where organizations, at the moment, only organizations rather than individuals though that may be something that's changed in the future. Work with digital mentors to help address specific challenges that they might be facing and output or trying to reach audiences online. And so we do work with organizations in a number of different ways but really it's looking at building capacity, how organizations might upscale and sharing knowledge around different approaches that people can take and that's one of the things we've been doing over the summer is just through the organizations that we've been working with, and to talking to them about what they had available in terms of things like monetization and distribution and and really just trying to get feedback from them as well about how that's been going and what barriers they're coming up against what the sticking points are what the issues.



Yeah, that would be really good to revisit



to the show. Yeah.



Yeah. And Mark Could you introduce us to marquee TV. For those who don't know, you're on mute still.



And yeah, I'm on mute. Every, literally, my life is Mark you're on mute. That's what happens when you small children, occasionally screaming while you're on zoom As some of you know, so marquee was is actually some marquee is a streaming platform for arts and culture content. It's actually there's there's kind of two teams that combined to create the platform. One is the New York team which is myself and one of my other co founders cath lab, we originally were involved in a company called Tandy TV, which was, we were started putting dance and dance film on iTunes and Amazon, like 2011 2012, then a few years later we realized, given some of the sort of the non systemic issues with distribution of arts programming that it would be better to have our own platform and at that point we teamed up. We sort of teamed up with a UK team, which is actually the UK team that some of the people that originally started the space back in 2009. Katie, Simon Walker and Susanna Simon's it's a long history there. And also we're involved in Arts Council, setting up Arts Council projects such as canvas. Just sort of spearheading as we've all gone through the sort of digital machinations of things that have worked and not work then. And so there's just a lot of sort of hard fought battles battle scars there. So, marquee where we are now, is we there's basically two components to marqise business on the distribution side The first is what we call our owned and operated network, which is when you go to you can create account you get a subscription. We're now also doing an increasingly number of of transactional or seasons past type offerings as well that are outside of the subscription. So New York City Ballet's Nutcracker is one that we just announced yesterday or Tuesday, which will be a big one. And then you can watch on we have apps on iOS, Android Amazon Roku, etc. We're now actually we also have an increasing number of kind of third party channels partners so in the United States, we have a standalone subscription that you can buy on Comcast on Cox. I think we're going to be, we're going Roku Amazon channel some of these other that where there's going to be a separate sort of standalone marquee offer. So it's a question of, you know, how do you bring that distribution to scale. And how do we sort of bring that distribution to scale, not only for the New York City ballets in the room, you know, the Royal Opera houses of the world but also for using those audience to generate traffic revenue for on a meaningful way for small producers or for festivals as well. So we just handled, which was the sort of the first deployment of some of the new features that we've just added the San Francisco dance Film Festival. We just had and we're going to be doing some more, you know, going forward some similar offerings where people can buy a bundle of content they can rent individual films. How do we you know and sort of looking into from a very practical perspective how do we also work within some of those use cases that particular films might have. And what does that mean so that we can put that infrastructure behind that's tailor made and scalable. We've got a bunch of space Commission's too which are always really great productions they've got. We, we'd like we'd like seeing that space logo come across things, because it is a marker of quality. But yeah so that's that's that's us.



Yeah. So, I mean, I'm, I'm already thinking actually I just want to sort of point you at each other and compare experiences and in a way. Maybe just to get the pandemic pneus of it out onto the table first to say, I guess for both of you this would have been a really marked change where people suddenly come to you and say, I need help I need advice I need assistance I need systems I need infrastructure and how, what kind and Katie you alluded earlier to the learning that's happening in Mark, you did as well. Can you share a bit about that experience the transition that we've all lived through now that we're still living through



your mark.



Sure. Okay, so,






yeah, obviously it's been an interesting time for everybody and I think, possibly the thing we've noticed is. I guess the volume of organizations who have been felt a certain amount of pressure, I think, to suddenly deliver something in this space so whether that's delivering performances online digitizing their way back, and then just actually the monetization aspect as well. Not everybody has felt the pressure to monetize but a lot of organizations have. And really the sense has been that there has not necessarily been anyone who has had the right answer straightaway, there wasn't people weren't looking for answers and there wasn't necessarily a really obvious one, and that people really have been and trying out things and testing and learning, as they go. And with, and I think the most sensible approach that we've seen, and is testing with quite small groups in those situations so not going all out straight away, and put yourself in a really risky situation where you are trying to set something out as an organization, or a company by yourself. And so yeah, it's just I think definitely this, the probably in terms of volume there's always been because of the work we do the space. I've always coming across organizations here we're trying to create digital content just distribute digital content but I think it's probably more the scale and possibly the type of organization as well. So particularly performance based organizations, quite often would be suddenly need a new focus being completely unable to tool and perform live means that you've completely changed focus so I'd say for, from what I've seen, it's just been the sheer volume and actually how people have quite rightly felt a bit like they're sailing blind because there hasn't been a really obvious answer of what to do. And, and that's been, I think that's been really interesting and challenging for people, understandably,



yeah mark that sounds like it would chime with your experience as well.



Yeah, I mean when this thing had I think there was a question. Initially, of how long is this gonna last, and what people were I think willing, and just frankly emotionally able to process. You know, it's, I mean when you look back on, on the month of March. It went from and, you know, we had we were having. We had some some people in from Scottish ballet was in New York who've done some space stuff and we've had a great company and some some great film stuff as well. Like, and that was March, 10, and March 17, we were packing our bags and skipping town in the entire world was shut down. I mean I think we had this the filmmaker in on like on their office on a Wednesday and by Monday we shut down the office, and we're done. And so now i think you know it's a question of what can we do right so what are our rights, what do we need to do. How long is this going to last so you know some of our partners were already basically talking about starting to kind of look even in the summer in June of, like, okay, we're not going to be back to normal until 2022. And we've even heard so 2023 so what's the timeframe. A lot of boards basically coming in, especially with the big organizations saying, you know, build your own platform or do whatever you can do some of those efforts have already basically stalled I think it's a question of not knowing that there's I think there's two sort of lines of experience. One is, what should we do, and then there's everything else where they don't know what they don't know. And that's kind of the, not knowing what they don't know is where we're seeing a lot of the activity now and starting to realize what they what they don't know. So, you know, our sort of universal recommendation for 99.9% of the organizations on the planet, like trying to build your own platform or doing something piddly with Vimeo. That's not a path forward, because then you get into where do you actually get things like any sort of scale or recognition or even just delivering an experience that users want. So we had a big rush, you know, March, April were some of our content partners the Royal the Royal Shakespeare Company. They did a lot of streaming through us, they did a lot of events driving through us, and we sort of got to really sort of feel test the platform. the UK is also a really particular market which is something that nobody thinks of because you've got all of these, you know you've got now TV, which people, which are Roku powered boxes but you can't access unless you do a separate deal with sky. You've got Freeview Freesat all of these different sort of gated environments which in the states we don't have. But every little kind of TV service satellite beat like they all have their own little so to actually get the penetration and deliver programming, just into a way where the, the audience's happy, which means not on your computer, not giving people instructions to plug in a laptop with HDMI or do whatever it is, people want to go they want to open up an app they want to watch it on a TV and they want it there like so and if, if they can't do it. You're giving them a bad experience which will result in them not coming back. And so it's with all of this what we've also seen is just, there's been some some good stuff done but there's also been, we see a lot of organizations that are actually harming themselves with the sort of half baked distribution approaches that they're taking. But it's challenging because there is as an arts organization you're geared towards it you know it's one thing to have your infrastructure built around creating art, selling tickets to that art fundraising for that art. But when you get into a digital into the digital world. You know it's not just uploading something on YouTube or putting something and giving a price and saying come buy my stuff. There's there's, you know, we've started building out a massive data operation there's mobile marketing like we have a gigantic marketing firm that is just churning, there's all of these sort of resources that we have or functionality that we're deploying, um, that just an individual organization again, just, it's, it's, so I think there's there's the sort of scale of what it really means to have a digital strategy. But also, I think there's a mindset thing of what that digital strategy, like what's the timeframe is are we just covering our butts for the spring, or are we actually looking at a long term where this is something which more organizations are doing now or this is just going to be part of our business. So I cover I covered a lot of ground there.



Ya know it's really interesting. There are a couple of things that strike me and one is the question is this just to get us through this particular time when other avenues are available or is this a shift which will be a different answer for different individuals and organizations. But that's a really crucial question and the other thing strikes me. You're saying for a lot of organizational a lot of smaller organizations that this is a big hurdle, you know that this is a. And we're talking about something like a streaming service. And then thinking if it's a hurdle for some organizations we usually have a bit more resource or a bit more manpower to devote to something. I'm thinking about individual artists and what what opportunities or avenues, you see, for them to and you were talking earlier about trying to make sure that in a way you get eyeballs from something more established onto something smaller as well. So, a how to get individual artists, access to these things and then generally thinking about who are we not reaching at the moment, or who is not easily included at the moment and there could be both on the side of the people who make work but also the, the audience's that we sort of attract naturally.



Well I think to either of us is that Yeah,



yeah. I'm treating this as free for all now.






um, you know, I think, I think this is where there's, there's a lot of room for festivals to get involved and this is a conversation we've had internally and and get a you know i mean i love dance film, like it's, you know, I mean that's where we sort of started. I've seen a lot of really great work I've you know juried seen a lot of, you know, not but it's I think it's a question from a business perspective and what we've learned from our various sort of interventions into the space is that there has to be some level of scalability, which is where the festivals can really come in as an initial gatekeeper it's far easier for us. You know, we want dense foam, but we can't go and negotiate contracts, you know, hand over you know we can't negotiate 40 contracts for two hours worth of, you know, material it's just not financially feasible and it's it's not a good use of resource. But with for instance with San Francisco dance Film Festival, you know they delivered in, they created the programs, you know they curated it, we had the seasons pass it gave us that opportunity where we could, you know, it's, it's, we can't market an individual film but we can certainly market a festival. And what we're then able to do and this is where the data and the scalability kind of comes in, which is being able to say, Okay, these are people that have watched you know crystal Pite and look at a swath of similar content. And then over time, you know, now we can go the next Dance Festival we have here so here's our festival ticket buyer list. And so what we're able to do is behaviorally bring up targetable scale, which on an individual basis. It's just not feasible even if you're talking about an organizational perspective organizations or, you know, if you're talking about an opera house or ballet company, you know, their their their their entire lens is very local. So it's just, it's a bigger, it's a different sort of push. And so that's, I think, you know, to make room I think there's room for the festivals, to really come in, and you know we don't, we're not we don't, you know, we don't care about internally about our dance film voice, for the most part, you know we care about San Francisco's or some of the other festivals that we really like you know like send a dance or you know and anything like that. Like we want them to. We want to and our job is to amplify their voice not insert our. Yeah.



I think I just wanted to add something to that if that's okay because I think it makes it's a really good point that Marx made that, I think, as an individual when you're looking at it from an individual point of view, whether you're a dancer artist or an independent publisher, and something we went up, we support a program that's running in the UK called New creatives is funded by the Arts Council, and supported by the BBC and basically individual young creatives aged 18 to 30 are commissioned to create a piece of film or audio content. These are normally individual creatives, so filmmakers or they might make a piece of audio or a piece of interactive work, but they are normally completely individual artists. And one of our main, which means essentially you start with a much smaller network and a much smaller reach online, and our advice is always as an individual or an independent public like you need to plug into something bigger than yourself like you can't do it alone. Like you have to, whether it's like the festival circuit like Mark was saying, or connecting into an organization or a company that is bigger than yourself alone. It's very hard as an individual, in, in this in the world of online content to get any significant read alone, like you're going to have to in that way that mark is talking about plugging into something like a festival, or something that's bigger than you to use their reach instead of like really you know the amount of effort you would have to put in as an individual trying to self publish in a space like this. And, yeah, so that was just, just to kind of back up what Mark said really just plug into something bigger and make your life easier



for yourself. Yeah. Yeah, it really makes me think about the,






the issue of audiences for something that is still relatively specialist. I'm also curious for anyone in the room who is either from the UK, or specifically not from the UK. Because I my experience of working in the arts in this country is that audience behavior is very much tied to class two perceptions of class two ideas of social strata, and I, it always makes me wonder what the potential is for growth of for audience growth in work that is quite specialist, or at least that work that people aren't used to or, you know, no one's in. I don't know how many people but I guess they're in the very few hundreds who are introduced to the idea of dance film. Just as part of their, you know, of their high school education or something like that. So, um, yeah I'm really curious to hear from both of you what you think about what the potential is for us to grow audiences and in what places that might be possible or in what ways we might be able to grow audiences.



I mean, I think, right. Sure, curation and it and sort of iterative reach is, and this is, I don't think that dance film is. And I think we've had this conversation before. I don't think that that dance film is specialist per se, I think it's an art form that is on an emotional level, very accessible to people right i mean when you look at even some of the sort of the early dance film successes on YouTube and, you know, they might be a little bit more commercial in nature but, you know, it's something where that can lock people in very very quickly. I think it's, it's more sort of taking it, taking that practice and putting it in that digital environment again when you're subject to algorithms. And, you know, the advantage. The disadvantage that art the arts in general are at and live Performing Arts, whether it's live dance film, whatever it is, is when you look at, quote unquote, like, like cosplay not audience development but let's call it what it is, which is customer acquisition. Right. If you're an independent filmmaker if you're even if you're a mid size $15. million 50. million pound Dance Company. You, in order to sort of compete and to optimize all of those marketing and discovery algorithms that exist around you, you have to you have to be always on. So, you can't, unless you're, I mean we're, we are literally marketing, 20 473 65, we have messaging going out and that allows us to optimize around algorithms that allows us to find audiences with with greater efficiency. Right and, but that's what sort of needs to happen when you have, let's say we've got 30 people in this room and 70 Arts bit you know, however many companies are in arts organizations that are in the portfolio. They're sort of all coming in piecemeal and they're never sort of getting to that point where they are constantly, constantly growing and constantly quote unquote acquiring. So I think that's, you know, and that's where the sort of the digital comes, how do you get to that level of scale. If you, so it's easier to sort of kind of jump into a flowing river, than to create your own. But that's something you know to be looked at. So, you know, a few the few of curatorial you know intermediaries, who at least are sort of contributing on some level to that discovery, you know if they take over month and then that month is feeding into the next festival and the next festival and the next festival. One builds on top of the other builds on top of the other builds on top of the other and that's how you have. That's how you draw people in. It's a question right it's so it's being able to sort of constantly feed people with what they give people the chance to find things that they like to put it in front of them to take that burden away from them. You know, or to alleviate the burdens of discovery. But it's got to be a sort of constant iterative process and when you're coming through from from too many different angles for short bursts of time you're just never going to get there. Yeah, I



think and I think it's a really interesting challenge because you've got a time where you're talking about reaching new audiences and actually if you're talking, maybe less from a platform perspective but thinking about trying to. So traditionally arts organizations and dance organizations have used digital content to try and reach new audiences by providing snippets of content for free. So using it as marketing content, and that's been quite a standard approach a lot of people providing this content for free. And that has been the way that people have perceived new audiences because you need to find a way to introduce people to your work, and then you bring in the added complexity of monetization because then you are, then I'd ask the question, Who is going to pay to watch something that you've created now actually the most likely people who are going to pay for something you've created or people who are very familiar with the work and familiar with the art form, and they're actually the people that you probably get to pay more money because, so you're, there's been this slight shift. Whereas, whereas before we were looking for trying to expand audiences and outwards and. And now there's this slight difficulty okay we want people to start adding monetary value to what we produce because we know that it shouldn't be free. And, but I wonder if there's a little bit of a struggle there between the foot in asking people who have never come across you before, potentially, unless it's through one of those kind of discovery mechanisms that that Marc's talking about. And can I just add to that question as well that's come through. Yeah,



I've come through. So, one for Marquis and then one for for both of you, I guess, yeah. So the first one was from Vincent Dunn's theater and it's where the marquee creates arts bundles on your platform like Canvas we're trying to do to create some sort of online festival to build audiences so you've given the example of collaborating with San Francisco dance Film Festival so maybe we can unpack a bit.



Yeah, I mean, we're not going to create we did, we did a summer shorts program for dance film but that was also done in collaboration with San Francisco dance Film Festival, actually, they we sort of collaborated with them and then we did the actual festival with them and in October. And I think this is, you know, when you talk about the free content and I think summer shorts were free right like these are the mechanisms and New York City Ballet has actually done the same thing in preparation for their Nutcracker that. And we're feeding kind of data back to them in this sort of real time way so when, when New York City Ballet or when we did summer shorts, we were actually every time somebody watched one of those films we were hitting them with a Google or Facebook retargeting pixel. When New York City Ballet was doing their live fall season or their sort of their fall digital season which was for free. They were pixeling those audiences for marketing purposes. Right. So for those of you who aren't familiar with retargeting. If you go on to Amazon and you look at, I don't know. The latest, you know, Echo device and then all of a sudden you start seeing ads for that all over, that's it's the targeting pixels that enable that. So, there's what you end up with there's an a sort of a little bit of efficiency at the sort of at the top of the marketing funnel, where you're able to sort of at least capture a basic fundamental data point, this is somebody that's watched your program. This is something that's watched, where you may not normally be able to capture those people. And that's when you sort of turn on the marketing to sort of continually bring those through, and those people are getting tracked are they are they then coming back and viewing are they coming back and targeting. So it's sort of in terms of finding the audience there, it's there's one of finding the new audiences and that's one angle of finding new audiences and then another angle of optimizing the audiences that you already have. But to do that again when you're talking about a New York City Ballet or Royal Opera who's had an amazing YouTube operation for years. You know you're starting because they're able to get that scale and they're you're talking about, you know, millions of initial top end data points they could just funnel them and funnel them and funnel them and funnel them and iterate into that ticket purchase or that digital purchase. And so then you know once they're in our environment, there's there's more data that we can use and drive them in. I don't think I really answered the question I think I've been off on a tangent again and I'm sorry for that. But it's, it's, you know, when some when you do on a festival standpoint but that was that was oh yeah that was the point that when you're dealing with festivals that gives you a greater pool where you can start collecting that data. And then again, over time, you're pushing people in so you know pushing people in and keep pushing people through. So that, you know, maybe if the 5000 people that watch the summer shorts maybe 100 of them bought you know tickets to the San Francisco dance Film Festival. But then we still have those lists, we still have those that those data profiles and are able to kind of continually push them through to increase those numbers, you know, month after month after month.



Yeah, I sorry I don't know your name from Vincent Dance Theater. Did you want to follow up with. Maybe I mean I just was curious because obviously we don't need to it's a less conventional sort of dance style I guess and I know Canvas we're trying to sort of ring fence or have collections of types of production company I hear what you're saying about data and it's easy if you're the world ballet or you know you're a massive organization, and massive organization and a very popular organization. If you've got a small a very strong audience. There might be collections of companies that could group together to try and build audiences collectively I thought that's what Canvas were attempting to do. I don't think they succeeded or obviously they lost.



Canvas try to do a lot of things. We're working closely with the cameras I mean and again it's it's it's. So



I was wondering if you think that's a good idea or if you think it's not a good idea whether it was on market or not.



Well that is kind of what we're doing to some extent so you know you start talking about dance theater and we've got our MDT content and we co commissioned with the space and when I don't have the space, did you guys did the space coke commission. reviser from Crystal Pitre was that just BBC that we work with. I know they did the space was



involved in. Okay.



Right, so it's collaboration among arts organizations is can be really difficult especially when you're talking about sort of harder patron lists and donor lists and all of that. But what we're able to do is actually through our metadata. The data and what we have is we say, okay, we're able to sort of take, we don't need you guys to collaborate. We just could say, Okay, here are all the people that are watching that are watching dance filmer here are the people that are watching, you know, Dance Theater. We actually have a machine learning, ai algorithm now running on the site, which is able to sort of create those relationships without even any human intervention. So we're doing that in order to bring a level of scalability that even if, you know, a small dance company doesn't have the scale on the data side, we're working on, on, collect, you know, collecting the background all of that information so that we can deploy scale at scale for any of these organizations, and it's been a, you know, it's been a lot around that use case of not, how do we bring in the Royal Opera House but how do we also on a mission basis, support the smaller organizations who are creating more innovative work, newer work, who have living composers that that need their work found, you know, living choreographers, you know, more different voices, you know not these sort of old dead white men. You know me and 50 years. But, um, and I.



That's it. Katie because he said you wanted to pick up question we know.



Yeah, I just, again there was a really good question from Becky I think about yeah you get to new audiences do not just check the website where there's audiences are absolutely yes that's completely right and that is one of the main things that we advise organizations to do at the space when we even when we're working on a project commission, we would never normally take the approach of, say, building a standalone website and having a video that's hidden away on the internet somewhere. You want to reach audiences, you have to take the content to where they are, because people have quite and regular browsing habits, it's quite hard to take them away but I would, I don't know whether that idea of specialist spaces comes into that I think it's just looking at looking at where those audiences are it could be on those spaces, and it does bring up that issue with the place where the most audiences are as where content is traditionally, give it away for free, or for quite low cost. So we think of platforms like Facebook and YouTube, which some people have questioned as a potential for there is obviously there are options for making money from platforms like YouTube and Facebook we wouldn't necessarily recommend it as a feasible option for a lot of the organizations that we work with purely because the amount of work and the amount of audience levels that you have to get to to make a very small amount of money from that it's just it's not really worth anybody's time. And, but yeah that that I think is one of the, the, I guess the challenges, and particularly when you're talking about reaching new audiences and wider access, and that a lot of the places where audiences are on a daily basis is where they can access content either for free or low cost, I don't just mean YouTube or Facebook like Disney plus is seven pounds a month like you know it's it's looking at the the landscape of of where people are consuming a wider range of content if you're looking beyond diehard screen dance fans you know it's it's, I'm trying to look at that space but I think you're absolutely right that you do need to take content to where audiences are, but they will be burying places where, where those audiences can be.



And I just want to ask Becky, if you want to pick something up from that, or if you want to. And something of your own experience in relation to places where you've tried to find what audiences, where they exist.



Yeah. Hello.



Hey. Um,



I think, for me, recently there's been a project that I've been involved in, where I have been trying to reach new audiences and non arts audiences. And my practical experience of that is that the work doesn't need to be free. And, but that's not to say that I don't get paid for the work, because I am supported by the Arts Council to make the work and so the work is paid for and it is paid for by the public it's paid for by people who buy lottery tickets. And it's paid for by people who pay tax. And so the work is paid for, I am paid, you know, not much but I'm paid. My team is paid not much but paid. So, are we unnecessarily putting barriers between getting to new audiences by going. The only way that this can be seen as having value as if it's monetary value.



So before I let mark and Katie come to the, I would really like to. And that might be unfair but I would really like to ask if slavka yovanovitch would like to respond because you posted in the chat, you highlighted the problem of digital poverty and access which I think really connects with this so I don't know if you feel comfortable speaking completely fine. If not, but it, it feels really relevant to this conversation so I just wanted to see you wanted to come in. Okay.



Hi. Sorry, having some technical problems there. And no, it was just sort of following on from what, Becky said really just about and reaching out to those people that we were talking about and how some people don't have certainly don't have access to computers and laptops if that was the platform that you were looking at. And, you know, many people have TVs I guess but it was just connecting to that whole theme of reaching out to new audiences and it's something that we're always trying to do through live our live performances. And I just feel that, in a way, there are less barriers, because one might say, you know, many people have phones. You know it feels like, people have the possibility to engage, but equally it depends. Which of these methods that you're talking about, for example the pay to view platforms and platforms that require certain quality of TV or computer so it was just an observation really and how we try and continually try to continue continuous challenging will continue to be so. And it's really good to be mindful of it all the time.



Yeah. Thank you.



I think it was in a really good point that and Becky and Zach you've just made, and it reminded me of something that somebody from an organization said earlier in the summer terrorists which was wet. There's a lot of folks I've been at ization but where's this illusion that performances have been earning us loads of money up to this point, because they're all there quite often in it's funded, you know, partly funded, sometimes partly by the Arts Council and yes ticket revenue would contribute to that, but it would normally be helping cover costs, it's not actually making people lots of money so yeah I think you're right that there's been quite a big focus on how can we make digital content, make us money in a time where we need extra income. And actually, that balance of ensuring that you're still able to reach out to the or it would be it would be awful to lose that goal of increasing access to the arts, that would be read that would be really sad as if a byproduct of that was, and was exclusion. Absolutely. And I think as well so I've got this The other issue if we've just been doing some work in Scotland. On the connection issues are real, real issue there so things like live streaming performances, and how you reach isolated rural communities. So huge problem and that's so different and you forget that when you're in the middle of a big city with great Wi Fi and a laptop that works but yeah these things are can be real barriers to people so it is, it's a balance and it's an issue that people will be facing this. How do we reach new people, but how do we make our digital activity sustainable.



I think that, you know, and it's funny that you mentioned that Scotland issue. Oh my god, it's outstanding their customer, like the customer, like, you know. Anyway, um, I think you know when you talk about accessibility and I think some of the, you know, or accessibility, or inclusion as far as audiences, I think that um what I've noticed in all of these conversations. And I think this is just a sort of, you know, in the States or Canada everybody sort of comes to same thing. It's. You have to realize that there's a sort of efficient frontier for audiences right there's the people right now just having live is also very excluding, you know if you talk to the Royal Opera House what Alex beard will say well our big three problems are the words Royal Opera and house at the Coliseum in London, they did a study and they found out that the physical structure of the door was keep it was creating an unwelcome environment so they leave the door open. So, I think when you look at making things available digitally you are making it available to more. There are certainly poverty issues, and there are certainly bandwidth accessibility issues we have them in the states as well. You know, but I think what we see here is that regardless when you have digital you are creating more access. Regardless, you're creating, you're giving people, you know you're not just kind of creating a thing where people have to pay in some circumstances, but you're also giving them the opportunity to pay a lot less. You're gonna know you're taking older audiences and giving them the ability who may might be homebound or who might be you're giving him the chance to, you know, I or, you know, or access and, you know, our price point is is pretty low, actually, for I think the cost of what we do. But, um, you know you are, I think you are creating more accessibility and I think you also have to look at Digital, whereas I could be like, oh digital digital digital digital is, is, is as much a tactic as it is anything else, it is part of an overall strategy that an artist should have live is important going out into the, you know, being in the quote unquote town squares important. All of these things are part of you, making your work and getting your work seen and access. I think the question where we sort of come in and when we kind of consult with some of our clients is, like, where does it fit in comprehensively and how does one feed into the other and where do they intersect, more than you should do a b c. so free works, how are you taking advantage of the free audiences New York City Ballet has has one strategy. If you are a big organization you have a ticket buying base you can deploy, you know, digital isn't monolithic by any stretch. So we're now increasingly seeing organizations sell a live ticket or record a ticket. And then, just like you have movies that go into, you know, before this whole virus that where you would have movies go into theaters and then they would come out on DVD and then they would be, you know, Netflix or HBO Max and then two years down the line they'd be like the free movie on Freeview at 1130 on a Friday night. Right. The arts can still create those windows to optimize that that that blend of of reach, and revenue. And I think that that what COVID has done is it's accelerated obviously people thinking in that way. But you can't sort of, it's not something that you can necessarily turn on a dime unless you have a lot of resource. So that's where it also gets into the people that are looking at this as a longer term thing and actually putting together foundational building blocks to include digital in their, their reach strategy and their revenue strategy, as opposed to the people that are in panic mode me like, oh shit we just lost our season, like, we're done. It does.



I mean, one of the things that you mentioned along the way, with the Royal Opera House referencing, you know, the challenge in a way that their image, I guess, and the physical the coliseums physical building might pose and how we how we all make ourselves exceptionally aware of where there are chinks just moments of being able to to ameliorate some of the access issues that we that exists in real life and I'm not saying that moving things on live by any means, will start moving things online won't fix everything automatically other barriers exist barriers are different for different people but I'm thinking specifically about a recent experience talking about different art spaces and how different artists perceived the feeling of walking into the art space. And the this, this way that that space is already signed and imbued with a lot of different qualities that people pick up on differently and online is another space where we're going to learn how these things are read by people and what's what access means for different people. So, that was probably fantastic be vague. And I'm, I want to next pick up this is very convenient with the chat because I don't have to remember who put their hand up in what order I can just look at the chat it's brilliant. So I want to invite you cloudier to, to talk about the point that you made about supporting the diversity of art spaces.



Thanks. And thanks everybody. That kind of got triggered by an image that mark gave about the river and the flowing rivers, which is sort of a nice bit of geography which I thought oh yes, there is a geography in space, or in this in this non space and. But, of course, we do have in our normal in our gonna say in the old world we have a geography where we walk past some places and we know there's sort of these five venues around about and in like Peter just saying we walk into a place and there's an association. And these different spaces have. There's also a kind of a dynamic as to how works developing develops in there. So I'm wondering, this is more coming back to this idea of curation. How can, if we, in some ways rely on these big rivers to make something happen. Or do we need to rely on these big rivers, is there is other other ways to support at the end of the day, a kind of diversity or something, sort of, realize you can see me. Does that make sense as a question.



You know, I have sort of two quick responses on that I think one of the things that I really have said about day one from our platform is we get to take any voice and put them on the same stage, you know, even using some of the sort of the audience data that we're generating from, you know, the Bolshoi or the Royal Opera House and and I really liked that that we can sort of create a little bit of an angle for equity. You know, in terms of voices there. But I also think that, you know, don't. When we look sort of long term at this the market voices, or the market forces when you look at dance in particular, there's some kind of areas of investigation that I'm really curious and some of those data points are starting to happen, which is that, if you have when you think about for instance you know you're sort of top of the pyramid if you want, ballet company. Right, they've got their Swan lakes and they have their chisels and they have their sort of, sort of, you know, their their canonical works, which are their big sellers their story ballets and all of that. When you get into the digital world those those traditional big brands in the dance space actually become commoditized, because what happens and we were talking about this before with New York City Ballet Nutcracker there's actually three or four other companies that are streaming George Balanchine's. The Nutcracker. I say The Nutcracker because that's that's the trademark. So all of a sudden it's there's competition there literally for the same work in a digital environment, and and the dance and the art and Opera I mean, you're gonna start to have that, that, that those forces interact with each other. And that's going to be really really interesting from a programming point of view. So what what what I'm excited about is seeing the fact that dance companies are going to have to start to do more to diversify their, you know, diversify, you know, lowercase D, their offerings offering which means that they're going to have to go out and they're going to have to find new choreographic voices and new stories to tell. And, you know, generally we're we're seeing those new voices, you know, do, do, you know, they are new voices, you know there's much more of an effort being put towards that to bring in women choreographers female artists artists of color artists of, you know, and to tell those other stories. You know, and there's just going to be a sort of market push to there because you can't have, you know, if you've got three ballet companies that are working together and co commissioning the same works, they're not going to be able to divvy up the streaming on that. Or there, that's going to be an issue so they're going to have to kind of dig they're going to be forced to dig deeper in order to be compelling and relevant. So,



because I was thinking of him because you're talking around these big ballet institutions, that could be a bit like a sort of black hole, couldn't it in some ways that so much is, is being pulled into that. How do the little tiny little specks of dust that need to grow in other places you know that also needs space, I mean it's interesting to think that maybe because of the strange homogenization of the internet that could suddenly compete with something like the Nutcracker. It's also an idea isn't it. Yeah. But, well, how could that actually be creating their own space so that they can, there's an alternative space, if not all, moving in the same direction within the same river kind of.



Yeah, I mean, I think there's there's, I mean I think the real opportunity is for the smaller organizations to sort of push through because those, you know, they're the voices have to. Hello, the forces have to the voices. Say hi how are you.



Hi. Okay.



Okay, I'll



be there. Um, you know i mean i think where they're gonna put where are they going to pluck that talent from and so when you look at even looking at City Ballet as a model like you know it's the Kyle Abraham's, and these sort of small company independent artists choreographers who are are now the ones that are getting elevated. You know from from from there, you know, I mean, from from their own you know smaller scale work into onto the big stage. So I think it's, it's the smaller organizations will be responsible for developing the work, and then actually benefiting from a sort of licensing upset sell model into that cost flexibility that structural flexibility into to, you know, licensing that up the chain, so to speak. There's going to be some differences I mean there's, you know, how those are going to pan out I think there's also an opportunity because they're all looking for filmmakers now and obviously there's a huge talent pool in the dance film area people that are used to capturing movement and we do see differences in quality when you have television crews versus actual dance filmmakers capturing work, a lot, a lot of different forces I think at play here.



Um, so I want to pick up a point from Katrina which is she unfortunately already had to leave but it's an area that I'm quite familiar with, so I will try to represent the thought that she's offered, which is the question about having a gatekeeper which we all know can create challenges and any, any process of selection is subject to the wider societal dynamics that are at play, and particularly with DUNS from festivals, as I said at the beginning, festivals usually rely on a fee for submitting work so it's the burden is on the artist and. to. to come up with the feet as a bit of a festival to be seen by the people who then become the gatekeepers for these further opportunities. And that's a that's a structure that's been in place for a while and I don't know any festival. That wouldn't love to be able to do away with fees and its practical and financial concerns Why then not and that actually leads me to the next round of discussion that has wonderfully broken out in the chat, which is that in some countries there is a funding system that allows artists to make work as Becky said, you might get money from the Arts Council, you might get money from other trusts and foundations or from the BFA to create the work to have your team paid, and maybe also to have some money towards the distribution of their work to pay for those Film Festival fees or other distribution mechanisms, a distributor or whatever system will work for the kind of work that you're making. That doesn't work for all regions, not for all countries. And it is a scary way of existing in a way but possibly one of the less scary ones compared to other systems that are, that exist in other countries. And so yeah I wanted to ask. I think it's Becky and Lou and PIP who are having that discussion and then pick up some of the later points on that as well. So yeah, I don't know, do you want to weigh in with what you've been talking about in the chat so unpack that a bit.



Yeah, and it was just a point and, and yeah I totally agree with Becky I think individual artists do feel that they, they won't make any money through digital art and. And so the only way they can make money is being is applying for funding but then obviously that's an application process you might not be successful. But if you are lucky enough to be successful, then you can cover your costs and your creative team costs but in light of the fact that we are moving towards a more digital future not only because the pandemic that we're in at the moment but also, you know, with the Arts Councils let's create a 10 year strategy, there's loads of stuff in there about how the expectation is on digital and digital growth. And, and so how, how can we encourage those small individual artists to actually make some money from making digital work, and not only going okay I can apply for 15,000 pounds or under to support me making a very short film because we all know that it's very difficult to make a film on 15,000 pounds as well.



He I wonder if you want to come in on that.



Yeah, it's I mean, it's a difficult one. No, I, you know, never say never. Nothing is impossible. It's absolutely as an individual if you want to go out there are platforms like Patreon, where, which is something where you can be asked people for support. As part of a, and you might see it with a lot of newsletters, so newsletters often use Patreon to ask you to for a military ask as a part of a kind of like a fundraising donation offer. Um, but again I think it's this idea of working in this world as a as an island and a bit of a lone chip trying to reach out to, to get enough traction and enough audience interest. It's just going to be a bit of an uphill battle so if you're looking at it pragmatically yes there are absolutely options available, but what is the one that's going to be most feasible in terms of securing your income as an artist. And at the moment, I would say, plugging into those funding streams or again, clicking into organizations who are plugging into those funding streams I know that's not always an appealing option if you want to practice as an individual, but it's trying to take get someone else to do the hard work for you so that you can practice what you want to practice and create what you want to create. So trying to. And I think it probably goes back to Mark's river analogy is that it is. It is kind of easier to, you'll have an easier job if you're if you're kind of plugging into something bigger than just yourself alone. Now there are other ideas around that as well. It doesn't have to be. And always, big funders, or streaming platforms, it could be okay. Do you want to do something collectively as a group of individuals that can somehow increase your ability to fundraise or fund work. But I think it's important to recognize the constraints of trying to do something like this by yourself, and the likelihood, I guess, of what your audience reaches as an individual, and to convince people to pay, and the only other way you could look at it, depending on how well known you are as an individual artist is to offer very high value experiences for people. And one of the organizations that I was working with over the summer, gave the example of what would we do like she said it as a joke to her board I think instead let's go and get some performers to go perform in the garden of somebody and charge them 1000 pounds for it and then we're going to you know is it like, get the cortex stirred up in the garden to charge, but it's not it wasn't the most ridiculous idea is that what value. Who were your biggest followers and how can you balance it so instead of going for a massive engagement strategy, you're going for smallest smallest scale strategy but trying to get more out of it in terms of monetary income. That was quite a wofully way of saying it probably is funding streams that you're most likely outcome or other organizations to look into. If you are an individual.



Yeah, we've also tried to do and again when you start to plug into those funding streams so this is something that I, the space when I don't know if you're still doing it but what was great about them is to get funding you basically, you know, you had to show the that you had plugged into that. So it was a question of, you know, you know, even in the sort of the early days of Mark k when Fianna was like, you know, who are you guys I'm like, but we're working. Um, but you know yet like for, for some projects where we basically were just writing letters of interest, like just to say yeah, if this gets made, we want it we'll put it on our platform maybe sometimes there were some, you know, money involved in it sometimes not, but just to say yeah that we're going to invest on our end to do something to get this so that it, that it's more people and you know, here's what we have we have our front we have our PR stream and we have our marketing and here's how we do kind of all of that and so it just shows that there's a little bit more kind of distribution or reach that is going to make the project for whatever metrics which are fairly, I think, at least in the space in the past and some of these fairly generous they just want to see that you're putting, you know, legitimate effort into it



completely because I think we know that if just an individual piece of content, and that somebody wants to make without we I think we're very aware, based on a lot of experience that it's very difficult to get the audience reach on digital channels, without plugging into something that will help you get that reach. So yeah, particular as part of the sort of space commissioning process, one of the criteria is. Have you thought about exactly what you just said Mark Have you thought about who is going to support you. So you're either an organization with a big reach or yourself but actually if you're an individual, what have you, what can you plug into that you're aware of. And that would be a distribution route for you, because without it, we know that these that one of my colleagues calls it beautiful secrets. So the last thing we can do is use arts for Arts Council when you just create beautiful secrets that will sit on the internet and no one will see. So, if you have to. That would be a shame, wouldn't it. If people went out and just made these things and actually by plugging into something bigger you guarantee, hopefully that people are actually going to see these beautiful pieces of work.



Can I check in,



briefly, just to say, um, you know when we're thinking about digital work we're not just necessarily thinking about single screen works we're thinking about the whole of the digital world. And that some works or projects aren't suitable just to be landed on another platform because actually what they are they are a website, and they are works that are contained within something bigger so I'm thinking of works like Marie says or not is glitch Giselle, which is a whole website. And it strikes me that there's, there's not only the need for platforms where people can go, I'll put my work on your platform, but agreements from wider organizations that they will include your platform, and signs to your platform, because that's where the work is the work is on a wider website and that the digital space that you have created for maybe a number of different works to sit in. That's as important as any other part of the work. So, you know, my question is for things like the space for marquee TV. Is there room within your organization to to lead people away from your organization towards work that they may be interested in.



For us yeah



so we again, you know I talked about. And we're always sort of looking to expand and we're recess, you know, we realized that we have to exist. Again, we look at ourselves as existing not as a standalone sort of monolithic platform that is separate from all of the work being created and the artists and the organizations that are creating it we look at as as an extension. So, when we partner with organizations, it's like what what else, what else do you need, what can we do for you that can bring are that are kind of ever increasing scale to benefit you as an organization. So if it's, you know, on the base level what we do and again I mentioned Facebook marks marketing pixels before is that we give them kind of direct access to that fundamental audience data so that they can use at will. And we have our own marketing capabilities, you know, whether it's you know again things that we're doing that can drive into a different project and we're happy to do that that's we, you know, we're obviously a for profit commercial entity. But we got involved in dance in the arts because we loved it and we wanted to support it, and that hasn't changed. We're not just sort of a standalone, sort of, you know, strip mine for the arts like a, like, like a YouTube or a Facebook would be, we're just taking the data for their own use and to monetize and charging more for for Facebook ads. So it is something that we are, you know, a collaboration, always a conversation that we're thrilled to have, because we want to support the artists. So however we can do it and especially you know there's lots of different ways of experience of experience in the digital world as you mentioned, it doesn't need to be this sort of just streaming up to a big screen. And so we're just we're part of an ecosystem we're not the ecosystem.



I'd say that's kind of similar for the space as well as kind of being part of that and I definitely the space isn't a platform as such, so it doesn't offer a massive amount of use to organizations, I would say as necessarily a distribution platform in itself, although that was its original form when it originally launched many many years ago. But actually what the space will do, either as part of a project come support for project Commission's or as part of the mentoring process, or as part of different levels of support is support organizations work out what their distribution model might be. So, if it's not the space, then who is it that you can be working with and plugging into to give your work, further reach and, and it would be. Yeah but trying to apply different logic to that, I guess around like who that could possibly be. And so that's really what we would probably do and that's an absolutely a lot of the project so a lot of the project missions that I tend to work on do tend to be the smallest scale self publishing smaller organization based work. And that's one of the things we do is work out, who can help those projects find bigger reach, who can we plug into what big publishers are there they're interested what, and that's not normal, honestly that's not normally related to monetization because it's Arts Council funded so it's it's what it's trying to increase access to that piece of artwork






but in terms of just reaching audiences, that's kind of what the approach we would take to be okay we've got a lot of people who know a lot about the digital space. So what can we, what information can we find who can we put you in touch with who do we suggest that you get in touch with, and to try and and lift those smaller pieces of work, further than they would a be able to do by themselves.



It makes me think about the. I'm gonna say this in a terribly crude way i'm sure, so ask for forgiveness in advance. I'm thinking about what people find online and what people's behaviors might be and we know very well that we're all subject to implicit biases, and that there is also a dynamic where we. Yeah, this is really hard to phrase, um, but that a film that features a character for instance, who has a disability will then be seen as relevant to other people with disabilities rather than a character who has a story. And so this this pre portioning that we audiences do automatically based on biases based on assumptions and knowing that an online world is not a utopia it's the same, it's subject to the same dynamics that we experienced in the rest of our lives. And so, I'm, I'm thinking, in, in what ways, could we become cognizant of those dynamics and have ways of. I don't know of subverting it or finding different ways of because we're talking about this in parallel, I guess to, how do we get new eyeballs on to the work that we know exists, those beautiful secrets that are actually trying to communicate with a wider audience and not a specialist audience at all.



Yeah Do you mean in terms of the fact that we're basically showing things that we do very similar to the things that we've seen before. Therefore, how do you get new, new things out to people because those algorithms are all playing into the, the bigger player you are, the more will show your content to people, the more people will consume it and it kind of that site I think I agree with that Lance that it kind of internet landscape of digital content favors the big players and favors. Those kinds of that we've talked, there's a lot of talk about your kind of bubble online isn't there basically see the same things you'd like the same things. You get shared what are the same things, how do you ever discover anything new,






Is that what you were kind of saying



yeah i think i think it's partly the rhythm, but I think it's also partly just very simple experiences like getting my family to go and see contigo when they toy in their town and and trying to explain that it's a dance company, not because you know they sort of, they might see someone on the, on the poster with a disability and go. But what, What does that have to do with me and just trying to go back to. It's done it, you go see, I tell you, but it's that's kind of my really crude example of that dynamic where I think there was, there is the function of the algorithm, but I think there's also, how can we steer against these, these tendencies in ourselves and become aware of biases and use the systems in order to make this less of a limiting factor, I don't know.



I think it's really easy I



don't know what



to do a really good question because there's a really good point.



When we look at, you know, I've always sort of looked at it as as kind of frequency of experience, and just creating those opportunities and, you know, I sort of look back and it's, it's, you know, I write so that you know I had that moment, obviously, the first time I saw you know cost of living, write the Dave tool Tanya Leakey. Do it. And it was just, I mean, right and they were just from watching that from, you know, in that film for the first moment it was never about a man with a disability, it was just look at that man move, and how he moved and and there was no question, you know, coming in and you know the implicit bias is like, oh you know when you have people that are dancing in wheelchairs that many I'm sure many people would have it's like, oh, it's kind of isn't it nice that they're dancing versus someone who was just like blown away and just that captivating to watch. So I think, you know, that the more that you you allow for that familiarity and experience, you know, lower than and lower the barriers to access that that just from a moving river point of view, you know, you're just near allowing the change to happen incrementally instead of saying, change, you know, and you're allowing there's it's unavoidable that people are going to when they when they see work like that or when they see Alice Shepard or, you know, right, who is God. She was a friend of mine, you know she's just you watch her on stage and she's just like a strong powerful piece of data and she's just. She's great. But that's, you know, but that's what it kind of takes it takes that sort of iteration of experience.



Yeah, it's. I can take that away and chew on that that's really useful. Um, I'm aware that we only have well by my watch, we have four minutes left. And I don't, I don't think I will torture you with an attempt at a summary of what has been rivers and, yeah, mostly rivers, I think, rivers and spaces. I don't know if there are any last minute questions, there's something from Vicki, Vicki Do you want to jump in and share



as just kind of reflecting a bit of thinking, you know, we're often talking about how we monetize and I think we just need to let go of that illusion. It isn't so logic is an MPO, we weren't gonna make any money out of our content we need that, but I think I just really wanted to take my hat off to what the space is doing and I really thought it was great in terms of saying, We're not a platform anymore we do something different. And what they did do for us was phenomenal. I think, you know,



it is a great project it was really good.



It was so exciting to be able to do that, you know, and I had a body of knowledge about distribution and I think it kind of blew my mind a little bit about optimization and actually you know I read upworthy when I scan through Facebook, you know the stories is what makes it and I think understanding that better about what you're talking about plugging in and amplifying that's actually how we can cross boundaries, out of who we think is our current audience, it was it was a fascinating experience and yes, it's what it's kind of let people know we did that and it was great. You.



I just want, sorry.



Yeah, so I was gonna add into space just being a sort of what what Arts Council has done right over. You know the last decade and a half is that they've allowed again for that incremental I mean in the early days of the digital strategy, it was like hey guys do something digital and come back to us and tell us what you did. Right, which eventually led to the creation of the space the creation of cameras and they've had, you know, they've had their hits and misses. But, I mean, the overall skill level and I'm and whenever you know, when even I first met of people and the level of sophistication has grown so much over the last decade. But you got that just the English are very much further ahead on this conversation, as, as much as you might not believe it, but it's a far more sophisticated conversation on this on your side of the pond than ours.



We'll take that as a, as a hopeful ending. Well, it's probably a mostly UK audience, although I can see internationals as well. Yes. No, it's just up to me I think to say thank you very much Thank you Mark, thank you, Katie. Thank you, Sophie stones for hosting this series of conversation that's really brilliant to have them, and thank you absolutely everyone who came, apologies for those who had to leave earlier and we didn't get to some of the questions posed by you, but really brilliant to have this conversation and have it added to by the by the by everyone in the room just really great.



All right, key Geeta Thank you mom. Thank you, Katie and check you such a great conversation I think we probably could have gone for hours. Katie I have a whole panel plans now on the concept of beautiful secret, that's what that's what I want to talk more about next. And I also want to say Happy Thanksgiving again Mark, thank you so much for joining us.



Thank you,



giving it your holiday we really, really appreciate that. And I just want to say that. Yeah, this is part of a session of conversations that we're co creating with Geeta. And there's a third one that's coming up, which is on the 17th of December at 3pm which is looking at technologies and tech in dance, particularly with a focus on AR and VR and other and digital possibilities in the future of tech so please come and join us for that, and other free events on the SE dance website and the whole thing is part of a wider program which is our 2020 vision there's loads of amazing short films on there that have been curated by brilliant artists again, or free to access please have a look. And we have a further conversation about one of the films that's on there, a film called Black stains. And we have a discussion around that film which is on the third of December, at three o'clock. So again, please come join us for that and just want to say thank you again for a really brilliant discussion and thank you to everybody for coming, lovely to see you.